how to know lensversions?

[danlindberg]

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I am about to get to know the Leica M system and get quite confused by all the different versions/generations of the same lens. If I can get hold of the serial number, is there a database somewhere that can tell me the full history of that particular lens?

 

My plan is to lurk around the net for a couple of good lens buys before I get the M9. In fact, I probably get an M6 to start with, even if every lens I get is to be used with an M9 in the end.

 

Right now I have found 4 adverts of lenses that are attractive moneywise.

 

1. Apo-Sumicron M 2/90mm Asph

2. Summilux M 1.4/21mm

3. Elmar M 3.8/24mm Asph

4. Summicron M 2/35mm

 

The main question is: Can either of these lenses be version 1, 2 or more?

How do I check it?

[UliWer]

Right now I have found 4 adverts of lenses that are attractive moneywise.

 

1. Apo-Sumicron M 2/90mm Asph

2. Summilux M 1.4/21mm

3. Elmar M 3.8/24mm Asph

4. Summicron M 2/35mm

 

The main question is: Can either of these lenses be version 1, 2 or more?

How do I check it?

 

With the first three you can be sure that you will get the first versions, for there is just one - if it is the 2/90 Apo Asph., not one of it's pre-asph. ancestors.

 

With the 2/35 you might find four versions, or call it five if you add the 2/35 Asph.

 

How to distinguish them? Use the search function

of this forum and try to get the Leica Pocketbook by Puts&Laney. Unfortunately the newest versions after 2004 are not in

the book.

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[lct]

...

1. Apo-Sumicron M 2/90mm Asph

2. Summilux M 1.4/21mm

3. Elmar M 3.8/24mm Asph

4. Summicron M 2/35mm

The main question is: Can either of these lenses be version 1, 2 or more?

How do I check it?

No problem with # 1, 2 & 3 lenses as there is only one version of those.

About the 35/2 you just need to know the serial number of the lens. For instance it should be version 4 if it's not an asph lens and if its serial number is above 2.974.250 according to D. Césari.

[lars_bergquist]

It is appropriate to know that the 'versions' are not official, so there is no absolute consensus on them. There seems to be a fairly general agreement that we are talking of optical versions and not just changes in the lens mount. But lenses are often recomputed for what may be called 'reasons of production'. A glass ins no longer available. A minor change may make the lens easier to assemble. This happens all the time. But a generally accepted 'version' should have is own distinct optical personality. Borderline cases exist.

 

Take the 35mm Summicron lenses. The first of them was the eight element v.1, 1958-1969. Erwin Puts says 1974. He is wrong. The v.2 came in 1969, with six elements (serial no. 2307451 and later). Now to Mr. Puts' error. The v.2 lens can immediately be spotted by the little tab on the aperture ring. The v.1 lens existed in M3 form, i.e. with 'goggles' in front of the finder and rangefinder windows. Erwin says that this version was made until 1974. But 'goggled' lenses made 1969-74 are v.2 lenses with goggles, aperture tab and all. Puts does in fact illustrate one of these v2/M3 lenses on p. 110 of his and Mr. Laney's ed. 7 Compendium (I have the German edition) but claims this is a v.1 lens! Neither Mr. Puts nor Mr. Laney seems to have really looked at the picture they provide. Errors of this kind abound in the literature. Don't believe it just because it is in a book.

 

At no. 2461001 (1970) the mount of the un-goggled lens was changed. The aperture tab disappeared (and also the infinity lock in the focusing tab). There is no change of performance or other optical characteristics. Still, this is usually called the v.3. The rationale seems to be the claim that the diameters of a couple of the interior lens elements have been changed. But then just any routine recomputation could be hailed as a new 'version' - if we knew about it! But authors who discuss this lens often call it "the v.2/3", in a bow to reality.

 

This composite 'version' was replaced in 1979 with the famous v.4 - or is it really the v.3? Oh well. First serial no. is 2307451. This lens was in production until it was replaced by the 35mm Summicron ASPH in 1996. Still reading? But this is how hairy the reality actually is. The thing is to make the distinction between a minor recomputation, a mount revision, and a genuine new optical design - and only the last, I think, should be designated a 'version'.

 

The nit-picking old man from the days of v.1

Edited October 4, 2010 by lars_bergquist

[lct]

....This composite 'version' was replaced in 1979 with the famous v.4 - or is it really the v.3? Oh well. First serial no. is 2307451...

2307451 was from 1968 (or 1969?), Lars.

[mustafasoleiman]

It is appropriate to know that the 'versions' are not official, so there is no absolute consensus on them. There seems to be a fairly general agreement that we are talking of optical versions and not just changes in the lens mount. But lenses are often recomputed for what may be called 'reasons of production'. A glass ins no longer available. A minor change may make the lens easier to assemble. This happens all the time. But a generally accepted 'version' should have is own distinct optical personality. Borderline cases exist.

 

Take the 35mm Summicron lenses. The first of them was the eight element v.1, 1958-1969. Erwin Puts says 1974. He is wrong. The v.2 came in 1969, with six elements (serial no. 2307451 and later). Now to Mr. Puts' error. The v.2 lens can immediately be spotted by the little tab on the aperture ring. The v.1 lens existed in M3 form, i.e. with 'goggles' in front of the finder and rangefinder windows. Erwin says that this version was made until 1974. But 'goggled' lenses made 1969-74 are v.2 lenses with goggles, aperture tab and all. Puts does in fact illustrate one of these v2/M3 lenses on p. 110 of his and Mr. Laney's ed. 7 Compendium (I have the German edition) but claims this is a v.1 lens! Neither Mr. Puts nor Mr. Laney seems to have really looked at the picture they provide. Errors of this kind abound in the literature. Don't believe it just because it is in a book.

 

At no. 2461001 (1970) the mount of the un-goggled lens was changed. The aperture tab disappeared (and also the infinity lock in the focusing tab). There is no change of performance or other optical characteristics. Still, this is usually called the v.3. The rationale seems to be the claim that the diameters of a couple of the interior lens elements have been changed. But then just any routine recomputation could be hailed as a new 'version' - if we knew about it! But authors who discuss this lens often call it "the v.2/3", in a bow to reality.

 

This composite 'version' was replaced in 1979 with the famous v.4 - or is it really the v.3? Oh well. First serial no. is 2307451. This lens was in production until it was replaced by the 35mm Summicron ASPH in 1996. Still reading? But this is how hairy the reality actually is. The thing is to make the distinction between a minor recomputation, a mount revision, and a genuine new optical design - and only the last, I think, should be designated a 'version'.

 

The nit-picking old man from the days of v.1

 

just a tiny correction to this otherwise erudite post:

 

I bought my 35 summicron in 1977 with number 2711837... I think it's version 4-ish?

[lars_bergquist]

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That lens is a typical v.3 - as it should be.

 

Both v.2 and v.3 lenses are six element designs. This means that the optical assembly is shorter than that of the v.1 (8 elements) and of the v.4 (7 elements) while they are all Gauss-type or modified-Gauss designs. So both v.2 and v.3 has a deeply recessed front lens. This is one of the most visible characters of these lenses. The v.4 lens has the front lens pretty immediately behind the filter thread. Also, the aperture ring has two large 'ears' which are missing on the v.2/3.

 

Of all the pre-aspherical 35mm Summicron lenses, the v.4 is definitely the best - a Mandler classic. Especially the bokeh, but also off-center sharpness, is improved. The fact that this lens was manufactured from 1979 to 1996 speaks volumes.

 

The old man from the Age of the 3.5cm Elmar

[danlindberg]

Thanks for excellent info!

I have search this site and google with "puts & laney" I find a lot of talk about them, but no list/database anywhere. Could anyone post a link?

[lct]

Dennis Laney, Leica Lens Practice

[euston]

Thanks for excellent info!

I have search this site and google with "puts & laney" I find a lot of talk about them, but no list/database anywhere. Could anyone post a link?

 

Puts’s listing is here:

List M lenses

 

Don’t neglect our LeicaWiki:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

 

Here are a few other links to Leica lens information:

leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Leitz and Leica Lens Compendium

Leica M Mount Lens Guide

Leica Lens Serial Numbers