Feedback and Criticism?

[andybarton]

Originally Posted by offshore

Criticism, critique, feedback, whatever you want to call it, both positive and negative is worth what you pay for it on any forum-nothing. If you want feedback, in any form, that may have some qualification to it then submit your photo's to the Popfoto or photonet forum so the "experts" can tell you what is good and what you need to improve on.

What makes photonet any more relevant than this or another forum?

[delander]

Originally Posted by offshore

I once submitted a photo for competition in a camera club and the expert claimed if I'd of moved back five feet the photo would have been perfect. What he didn't know, and didn't ask, is where I was when it was taken because five feet back would have put me and my gear in fifteen feet of water.

That happens a lot in photo club competitions. Common critiques are: subject in the centre; distracting object or light area near the edge or in the background; distracting object in the foreground; no objects in the foreground; not enough detail in the background; too much sky; too much forground; no catchlight in the eyes; it did not look like that when I was there; It would have been better if (not knowing that the 'if' was impossible to achieve due to circumstances.

So club members taylor there prints etc to avoid these criticisms. The result, what I refer to as the 'Singapore Syndrome' everything clean and tidy, nothing out of place boring!

There is a particular effect on landscape photography, the 'letter box' format where the photographer has cropped away large areas of sky and foreground. Loss of those areas seems to me to remove a lot of the notion of 'place' and any three dimensional feeling that was present.

Jeff

[pgk]

Originally Posted by Saloti

I think there are many reasons why people post their photos.

Very true. I've recently posted a number of images taken on an M8 with a 21mm f/3.4 Seper-Angulon. This is because when I considered getting a copy of this lens I could not find many examples of how the combination worked together. My aim is simply to show that they do work ok (although the issues regarding UV/IR still remain) and it is especially usable in B&W. So the idea of criticism one way or another doesn't bother me, but I'd agree that for those wanting critique a seperate forum would be a good idea.

[antistatic]

Originally Posted by delander

That happens a lot in photo club competitions. Common critiques are: subject in the centre; distracting object or light area near the edge or in the background; distracting object in the foreground; no objects in the foreground; not enough detail in the background; too much sky; too much forground; no catchlight in the eyes; it did not look like that when I was there; It would have been better if (not knowing that the 'if' was impossible to achieve due to circumstances.

So club members taylor there prints etc to avoid these criticisms. The result, what I refer to as the 'Singapore Syndrome' everything clean and tidy, nothing out of place boring!

There is a particular effect on landscape photography, the 'letter box' format where the photographer has cropped away large areas of sky and foreground. Loss of those areas seems to me to remove a lot of the notion of 'place' and any three dimensional feeling that was present.

Jeff

You must have been to my photo club

I especially like the way themes for club competitions are interpreted in the narrowest possible way so again you get 30 versions of the same thing.

[offshore]

Originally Posted by andybarton

What makes photonet any more relevant than this or another forum?

Photonet and Popphoto both have a specific category for submitting photo's for critique and your photo is critiqued by professional photographers.

[PeterMartin]

“offshore” made a really valuable point. We apply the label “expert” to people who arrive with a certain reputation attached. And their opinions may be no better or worse than ours. If they’re the president of the camera club, or arrive with 20 grand worth of gear, we assume they must know what they’re talking about.
To me judging photographs is a little like judging wine or classical music…you learn by trying to see and experience as many different types, styles and genre’s as possible. Constantly looking at magazines, galleries, reading the articles. The more we absorb…over time…the more our tastes, likes and dislikes develop. One needs only to look at any of the ‘big’ fine-art photography galleries out there. How many times have you looked at the work in those galleries and thought, “…are you kidding me??????”
If you respect a photographer’s own work, his or her’s opinion may mean more to you as well.
If Anne Leibovitz, Mario Testino or Cindy Sherman critiqued my work, I’d smile, say thanks and walk away…if HCB, Ernst Haas or Ray Metzker gave me their thoughts, I’d kneel before them!

So my next question…should future comments by me be kept to no more than 2 lines…??? I do get a bit carried away sometimes….
______________________________
www.petermartinphotographer.com

[earleygallery]

I think we need to remember that this forum relies on 'voluntary participation' - there are no paid critics or tutors!

I dip into the photo forums when I have time, usually choosing to look at images on the basis of the title, or if someone whose work I know has posted, and then I will only comment on images that I particularly like or have something to add, be that about the subject matter or a technical point of view.

I have given constructive criticism where I think it has been appropriate, but with care not to offend or discourage the poster (especially if it is from a new member). Again this has only been when I've felt particularly motivated to do so, for whatever reason AND where I've had the time to think about it!

Personally I think we should all encourage constructive criticism on the forum - we're all (mostly!) grown-ups after all, as long as it is kept civil.

[offshore]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

I think we need to remember that this forum relies on 'voluntary participation' - there are no paid critics or tutors!

I dip into the photo forums when I have time, usually choosing to look at images on the basis of the title, or if someone whose work I know has posted, and then I will only comment on images that I particularly like or have something to add, be that about the subject matter or a technical point of view.

I have given constructive criticism where I think it has been appropriate, but with care not to offend or discourage the poster (especially if it is from a new member). Again this has only been when I've felt particularly motivated to do so, for whatever reason AND where I've had the time to think about it!

Personally I think we should all encourage constructive criticism on the forum - we're all (mostly!) grown-ups after all, as long as it is kept civil.

I agree and think there is a difference between posting a photo to "share" with fellow forum members and posting a photo for critique. As another forum member suggested perhaps it is time for a critique category with a preamble about not getting defensive if ye dare enter here so long drawn out verbal battles don't ensue.

[robert_parker]

Originally Posted by PeterMartin

So my next question…should future comments by me be kept to no more than 2 lines…??? I do get a bit carried away sometimes….
______________________________
www.petermartinphotographer.com

Peter - no problem, we'll introduce you to Guy Mancuso....
(I think Guy knows no offence intended - I'll look forward to reading your next post Guy, as they're great, with or without punctuation....)

On a more serious note I think there is a danger of having just too many categories and structure, which could easily be damaging to the flexible and informal nature of the forum. People come in, they post photos, recieve comments if they're lucky and hopefully gain something from the process. There doesen't need to be a special centre to achieve that, as the whole forum provides that function in one way or another and people whom want to learn, learn as much or as little as they want and people able to share their experience, do so and are welcome for it.

If people don't want comment or critique, they can say so, (or perhaps use the gallery, which could be adapted to provide that type of showcase function).

[hodimeyer]

Martin, normally I comment pictures, that touches me in a positive way. Therefore most of my comments are positive. On the other side I simply ignore pictures I do not like.

All the best
Horst Dieter

[roguewave]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

I think we need to remember that this forum relies on 'voluntary participation' - there are no paid critics or tutors!

I dip into the photo forums when I have time, usually choosing to look at images on the basis of the title, or if someone whose work I know has posted, and then I will only comment on images that I particularly like or have something to add, be that about the subject matter or a technical point of view.

I have given constructive criticism where I think it has been appropriate, but with care not to offend or discourage the poster (especially if it is from a new member). Again this has only been when I've felt particularly motivated to do so, for whatever reason AND where I've had the time to think about it!

Personally I think we should all encourage constructive criticism on the forum - we're all (mostly!) grown-ups after all, as long as it is kept civil.

James, don't underplay the marvelous humor & entertainment value of your wry comments. There's a lot more art in the forum than just in the images.

[topoxforddoc]

Peter,

As someone who only joined this forum 2 years ago, I have found it a real boon. Before I joined, I didn't really have a style and many of my pictures were so so. I don't have time for camera clubs every week; some of those are afflicted by the singapore syndrome and a lack of constructive criticism too.

My image taking has improved enormously over the last 2 years. The comments (or lack thereof) have been very illuminating. Seeing other peoples' photos (good, bad or indifferent) has also been educational. Every day I can dip into a host of differing peoples' styles and images. Some you like and some you don't. For me no comments makes me think about where I went wrong and forces you to re-look at an image again. This latter part usually is the most educational bit, as you become your own harshest critic.

Charlie

[robert_parker]

Originally Posted by topoxforddoc

Peter,

As someone who only joined this forum 2 years ago, I have found it a real boon. Before I joined, I didn't really have a style and many of my pictures were so so. I don't have time for camera clubs every week; some of those are afflicted by the singapore syndrome and a lack of constructive criticism too.

My image taking has improved enormously over the last 2 years. The comments (or lack thereof) have been very illuminating. Seeing other peoples' photos (good, bad or indifferent) has also been educational. Every day I can dip into a host of differing peoples' styles and images. Some you like and some you don't. For me no comments makes me think about where I went wrong and forces you to re-look at an image again. This latter part usually is the most educational bit, as you become your own harshest critic.

Charlie

Agreed - for me this forum encourages people to make contributions and itself develops new ideas by virtue of its open style and lack of correlation with other forums - that's the whole magic of it.

[PeterMartin]

Originally Posted by topoxforddoc

Peter,

As someone who only joined this forum 2 years ago, I have found it a real boon. Before I joined, I didn't really have a style and many of my pictures were so so. I don't have time for camera clubs every week; some of those are afflicted by the singapore syndrome and a lack of constructive criticism too.

My image taking has improved enormously over the last 2 years. The comments (or lack thereof) have been very illuminating. Seeing other peoples' photos (good, bad or indifferent) has also been educational. Every day I can dip into a host of differing peoples' styles and images. Some you like and some you don't. For me no comments makes me think about where I went wrong and forces you to re-look at an image again. This latter part usually is the most educational bit, as you become your own harshest critic.

Charlie

Charlie..(I thought all British men were Charles...???)
Good point...but you also need to expand and see what the the magazines are using, the photo books being published, what the galleries are using, etc.
By the way...would love to see more of your B&W Jazz shots...

[topoxforddoc]

Originally Posted by PeterMartin

Charlie..(I thought all British men were Charles...???)
Good point...but you also need to expand and see what the the magazines are using, the photo books being published, what the galleries are using, etc.
By the way...would love to see more of your B&W Jazz shots...

Peter,

You're quite right about having a wide range of images to view and learn from. I do all the other things too. However, there are far more images posted every day on fora like this than you could possiby see in books or galleries. Unless you're a professional art critic, that is.

I'll post some more Jazz shots later when I'm home

Charlie

[Alberti]

Criticism is indeed a difficult issue, and I remember Albert saying 'It gets harder to get positive comments', last year.
I like the remark jm68 made

if a picture is made with a leica, it has to be great. if you see a crappy picture, you'd better say "lovely colors/composition/bokeh!!!!!":

but a crappy picture is a crappy picture, and if it 'needs reframing, redevelopment' and more, say so. Sometimes pictures are a bit lazy, and the development could have brought up a bit more. Still I am allergic to people who take a posted image, photoshop it (= recolour or resharpen it) and place it back as a gift.

Having studied art-history myself, I know a 'learned eye' can observe differently than others, appreciate elements that pass other persons' observations, and even "lovely colors" can catch the attention as a pleasing abstract form.

On the other hand, I have seen postings, such as in the 'colourfull thread, open to all' , that there are posts from other camera brands, immediately detectable. Ugly cheap post-processed work. No one comments on that. That I think is wrong [but it is work for the Mod].

robert_parker: there is a danger of having just too many categories and structure

.
To me, all those categories are a bit difficult as well, do they imply other comments too?

There is more to the leica images than glass - the bokeh - but it is hard to explain.
There are common issues to all of us, the learning curve of the RF. With the M2/M6 I didn't see my pictures back untill after often weeks - now I get almost instant gratification. I can now see if my plane of focus is right for instance, one of the nicest things of this camera as I see it. Still almost never ever, anyone comments on this. We comment that the lens has front- or back-focus, but it is also a subject a user can focus attention to.
alberti

[fotografr]

I've posted images and gotten very glowing comments that made me feel like people really had a strong and positive reaction to them. Then, looking at other photos, I've seen the same remarks by the same people about images that were clearly inferior, poorly composed, unsharp and just plain boring. This leaves me with the impression that the individuals leaving the remarks are just trying to make everyone feel good and don't really mean what they are saying.

[Michael Hiles]

There are a few individuals who comment frequently - I believe what they say, and I suspect that they (and I) differentiate, recognizing that not everyone is at the same place on the learning curve. We can't all print like Ansel Adams on day one, and we develop an eye and a sense of composition over time. I think it is useful to encourage people who have the courage to present themselves in public, likely with some trepidation. I quite like some constructive criticism, and I quite like being told that my pictures are liked for whatever reason. I am not keen to hear "your picture doesn't turn my crank, why don't you donate your camera to charity and go into roof repair etc." - as my grandmother used to say, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. To my way of thinking constructive suggestions and criticism are included in "something nice". So is encouragement.

[bill]

I've been musing on this...

Rangefound

Regards,

Bill

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by bill

I've been musing on this...

"Great capture" is the photographic equivalent of a moron at a golfing major screaming "It's in hole". The ball invariably doesn't go in the hole, and the photograph is rarely 'great'.

Now I know we all, or most of us, like our masterpieces to be appreciated, but when the comments appear to be made by using copy and paste the value of such comments diminishes IMHO.