Monochrom Banding Normal?

[dwbell]

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Leica came pretty late to a successful digital camera business and they are apparently still on a pretty steep learning curve.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to get upset about them "learning" on our dime and time though, is it?

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I don't think it's unreasonable to get upset about them "learning" on our dime and time though, is it?

 

I do. All the while folks at Leica are absolving their learning curve, thousands of pleased photographers are extracting great value out of those flawed and scarcely useful products....

 

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[wjkotze]

Just out of interest I have noticed that Dfine 2 from Nik does a pretty amazing job to remove banding.

 

The attached samples is from my MM "torture" test designed to induce banding. I both cases I have used zero noise reduction in Dfine 2 and only applied a mild amount of horizontal banding removal.

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[raumplan]

Just out of interest I have noticed that Dfine 2 from Nik does a pretty amazing job to remove banding.

 

The attached samples is from my MM "torture" test designed to induce banding. I both cases I have used zero noise reduction in Dfine 2 and only applied a mild amount of horizontal banding removal.

 

This is really interesting to know, let me try this too!!! do you consider this a get-around until Leica issues a firmware to fix the problem?

I haven't used Dfine2 before though I have downloaded the bundle...

 

Sir, what percentage of banding removal did you apply on this sample test?

Edited April 7, 2013 by raumplan

[k-hawinkler]

I don't think it's unreasonable to get upset about them "learning" on our dime and time though, is it?

 

 

Well, why are you willing to give that much control over your emotions to someone/something else?

There is an easy fix. Don't buy their stuff until it is up to your standards!

[wjkotze]

This is really interesting to know, let me try this too!!! do you consider this a get-around until Leica issues a firmware to fix the problem?

I haven't used Dfine2 before though I have downloaded the bundle...

 

Sir, what percentage of banding removal did you apply on this sample test?

 

It might be one of the temporary workarounds, but I still expect Leica to address the underlying problem. I simply played around with the software and was surprised how well it handles banding. Banding is normally considered as one of the most difficult problems to solve in post-processing.

 

I used about 50% banding removal. The scale goes to 200%.

Edited April 7, 2013 by wjkotze

[raumplan]

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It might be one of the temporary workarounds, but I still expect Leica to address the underlying problem. I simply played around with the software and was surprised how well it handles banding. Banding is normally considered as one of the most difficult problems to solve in post-processing.

 

I used about 50% banding removal. The scale goes to 200%.

 

 

Thanks wjkotze.

[dwbell]

Well, why are you willing to give that much control over your emotions to someone/something else?

There is an easy fix. Don't buy their stuff until it is up to your standards!

 

Read my post. Sumolux was getting upset. You suggested not to, I suggested it's not unreasonable to do so.

 

I haven't given anyone any control, and do vote with my wallet all the time. I can understand the posters frustrations though.

 

Simple misunderstanding, maybe I could have been clearer in my response.

[raumplan]

All, I think the more people report to Leica the better.

 

I personally have handled two Monochroms and they all exhibit the same banding problem. Leica have told me very recently that the cameras they have tested are fine and do not exhibit banding. I have told them the exact parameters as I sure a number of us here know how to create and eliminate banding at will, not to mention a number of users here have done extensive testing and written very detailed findings.

 

I don't know where the problem is but surely I am not lying and I don't think Leica is lying either.

 

The frozen camera in discreet mode I can live with......but the banding problem at base iso is extremely frustrating....

Edited April 9, 2013 by raumplan

[wjkotze]

All, I think the more people report to Leica the better.

 

I personally have handled two Monochroms and they all exhibit the same banding problem. Leica have told me very recently that the cameras they have tested are fine and do not exhibit banding. I have told them the exact parameters as I sure a number of us here know how to create and eliminate banding at will, not to mention a number of users here have done extensive testing and written very detailed findings.

 

I don't know where the problem is but surely I am not lying and I don't think Leica is lying either.

 

The frozen camera in discreet mode I can live with......but the banding problem at base iso is extremely frustrating....

 

When you say that Leica tested various cameras, are you referring to Solms or to a regional distributor ?

[raumplan]

Both the Solms Customer Support and London's Client care team.

[Guest SUMOLUX]

The frozen camera in discreet mode I can live with......but the banding problem at base iso is extremely frustrating....

 

Exactly...The discreet mode issue is not a deal breaker for many, and stripes at high ISO extremes are not deadly either, however unpleasant.

 

But the lock-ups and base ISO striping/problems? At what, £ 6,000 ?

 

Does anyone know a camera that costs 1/4 of that that acts the same? I don't...

 

And that is why I think these are really primitive digital issues that could easily be solved with a few expert Wetzlar outsiders imported in. The kind of people who don't say "Oh our cameras here don't do that" but "15 cameras with problems is 15 too many- let's get to work now and solve this".

 

The M was not introduced yesterday.

And the base sensor architecture has been around for years now...

Which I think only adds to the frustrations of users/potential buyers.

[raumplan]

In my last email to Leica I have asked them to please relay the problem to their technical department to carry out investigation as the problems do exist, even though they couldn'd fabricate the banding using the parameteres discussed in this thread.

 

Good luck to all M-M users out there including myself!

[wjkotze]

Hereby just an interesting example which shows the influence of card speed on banding. I have used my standard "torture" test which is a high contrast scene with large areas of deep shadows. In both cases a rapid sequence of 5 shots were taken. The card on the left is a 32gb Transcend Class 10 card. The card on the right is a 2gb Sandisk Class 2 card. In the case of the Transcend card all banding samples were equally bad and I simply selected a random one. In the case of the Sandisk card I could find only one frame which shows the slightest bit of banding and that is the file that is shown. The pattern is consistent with the findings of other similar tests.

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[raumplan]

Hereby just an interesting example which shows the influence of card speed on banding. I have used my standard "torture" test which is a high contrast scene with large areas of deep shadows. In both cases a rapid sequence of 5 shots were taken. The card on the left is a 32gb Transcend Class 10 card. The card on the right is a 2gb Sandisk Class 2 card. In the case of the Transcend card all banding samples were equally bad and I simply selected a random one. In the case of the Sandisk card I could find only one frame which shows the slightest bit of banding and that is the file that is shown. The pattern is consistent with the findings of other similar tests.

 

 

To your point, slow card only reduces banding but does not totally eliminate them. Honestly it is becoming so difficult to find such antique slow cards nowadays! It is almost absurd to have to work around this problem with antique cards if Leica refuses to deal with this problem... thanks for the very informative testing indeed.

I hope Leica's technical dept will visit this thread and see for themselves the issues.

Edited April 10, 2013 by raumplan

[jaapv]

Does anyone know a camera that costs 1/4 of that that acts the same? I don't...

 

 

 

Err... no, but then I do not know a camera at any price that produces the same images when handled outside these issues...

[dwbell]

Err... no, but then I do not know a camera at any price that produces the same images when handled outside these issues...

 

So a monochromatic sensor is reason to allow unpleasant image artefacts? Or is a mechanical rangefinder reason to allow them? Maybe both together allows worse problems?

 

Leica is about images above anything else. Perfect optics, decisive moment, camera for life. Images with visible banding? Is that the Leica look? Please.

 

It's a problem that needs addressing (even in a card advice memo, god knows we've all been there), not hiding behind other positives of the design.

[jaapv]

Did I say that? No. Just pointing out the illogicality of calling for other cameras that don't exist...

Edited April 11, 2013 by jaapv

[dwbell]

You're right. Of course. There are no other €6800 (body only) monochromatic cameras that show banding and lock up.

 

My bad.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Strange it seems you would accept banding in a say- 2500$ camera:rolleyes:

My take is that it should not be there at any price. For the moment, however, I saw it only in a few shots out of 7000 and it cleaned up decently in post, so I can live with it for the time being. As for locking up, ask me again when I have experienced it.