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S2, worth it?


Ronan

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I'm thinking of grabbing a new digital big boy for an art gallery I'm doing.

 

I'm used to the Hasselblad H system, having used a H2D and H3D for a couple years. They are, in my opinion, the best system in digital medium format.

 

I have my eyes on a H3DII 50 MP that i can easily upgrade later if needed. For much less, i could also grab a 31 MP back.

 

Then my Leica dealer showed me a S2. So yeah... :rolleyes: The ergonomics felt a multitude better than the H system (it feels like a fat D3, which i used since the first day they were available to NPS members).

 

Does anyone have first hand professional experience with a H system vs Leica's S system?

 

How does the glass compare vs each other?

 

If i make the jump in a S2 + lenses, am i tying myself down to a dead system like the R?

 

How's the service from Leica when dealing with the S2? (First hand experience with Hasselblad, we were treating like kings).

 

Thanks! :)

 

Edit: The way i see it in my head/mind:

H system lets me change backs to upgrade, and use on my 4x5 View Camera.

S2 felt very comfortable, like its an extension (i'm used to Nikon's D3, D2x and D2h).

Leica has superior lenses? Really not sure of the S lenses vs Hasselblad lenses.

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I'm thinking of grabbing a new digital big boy for an art gallery I'm doing.

 

I'm used to the Hasselblad H system, having used a H2D and H3D for a couple years. They are, in my opinion, the best system in digital medium format.

 

I have my eyes on a H3DII 50 MP that i can easily upgrade later if needed. For much less, i could also grab a 31 MP back.

 

Then my Leica dealer showed me a S2. So yeah... :rolleyes: The ergonomics felt a multitude better than the H system (it feels like a fat D3, which i used since the first day they were available to NPS members).

 

Does anyone have first hand professional experience with a H system vs Leica's S system?

 

How does the glass compare vs each other?

 

If i make the jump in a S2 + lenses, am i tying myself down to a dead system like the R?

 

How's the service from Leica when dealing with the S2? (First hand experience with Hasselblad, we were treating like kings).

 

Thanks! :)

 

Edit: The way i see it in my head/mind:

H system lets me change backs to upgrade, and use on my 4x5 View Camera.

S2 felt very comfortable, like its an extension (i'm used to Nikon's D3, D2x and D2h).

Leica has superior lenses? Really not sure of the S lenses vs Hasselblad lenses.

 

I have no experience with Hassy.

Had Hy6 before and now use S2, but not professional.

I couldnt imagine glass to be much better than the S2 lenses. Even wide open its very good/sharp/great microcontrast with a smooth out of focus zones.

 

IMO the chance that the S2 system will last is pretty good right now. Leica is selling more S2 than expected, their financial situation has improved a lot, they spent so much money in R&D for the S2 and if it sells why should they give it up? It is also a unique product with no real competition. I would think it is a cash cow allready even though it is pretty new.

 

The "update" policies for DB...mmmmh- if I see how much money you loose when selling a 2 year old back and buying a new one I dont think you save much money over selling an integrated camera like the S2 and buy a new one.

I assume the prodcut cacle of the Leica would be longer than that of DB.

So you would have to wait longer until you can update, which can be good and bad (for me its good)

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S2 felt very comfortable, like its an extension (i'm used to Nikon's D3, D2x and D2h

 

I'm turning around the S2 for some time now, trying to justify to buy it. I made an extensive comparison with my D3X (with removed AA-Filter), especially compared the combo S2+70 and D3x+60 AFS. I must say that the differences are minor and it needs prints larger than A2 and/or crops to see any advantage from the S2. And compared to the D3X, the S2 has some important downsides for me: Slower center AF, missing Nikon CLS, smaller range of lenses. And I didn't like the bokeh of the 70.

 

I also think about a H4D 50, especially as I imagine that the "truefocus"-feature should be very helpful for my work (portrait, landscape). So I will apreciate any comparison with HB as well.

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I am using both the H4D50 and the Leica S2. Once you start shooting with the hassi and you experience the superb image quality there is no return to 35 mm cameras I am afright to say. That is why I bought the S2 and Honestly with all the limitation it comes with compared to a canon or nikon the results are amazing . I found the colors straight out of the camera are second to none and the resolution is just what I am used to seeing when I shoot with my H4D50. I have just been on a trip to Lanzarote shooting some vulcanos and the S2 has been a great travel companion in every way. I just wished Leica would get their act together and get the CS lenses ready .

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lucky guy :-)

 

Can you tell us if the "true focus" concept of the Hasselblad makes a difference?

 

The True Focus on the Hassi works well when there is enough difference from the original Focus Point to The new adjusted Camera Position . One has to say it also only works when the camera is moved cross wise meaning up and down or left and right while holding down the TF button,and not diagonal. So, if you use a wide angle lens like the 28 mm and you are close to your subject the refocusing happens automatically and is quite handy. The way I shoot my images I hardle ever need it . :D

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Currently using a Hasselblad H4D/60, with HCD 28/4, HCD 35-90/4.5, HC 80/2.8, HC 100/2.2, HC 150/3.2n, HC 210/4 & HC 300/4.5mm + 1.7X and HTS/1.5 ... this is the 8th HD body in a row.

 

Regarding "upgrading" the H back ... if you mean the back alone, you are mistaken ... the H system has been fully integrated since the H3D and when you upgrade to a different back you also upgrade the camera. It is no different from the S2 in that way. Unlike the S2, the H back CAN be removed to use on a tech camera.

 

I also use a Leica S2P, S35/2.5, S70/2.5, 120/2.5 and 180/3.5. I extensively tested the S2 against my H4D/40 ... upgraded the H4D/40 to the H4D/60 and bought an S2P and 4 lenses. The S2 visibly outperformed the H4D/40 for my type of subjects and applications, probably due to the S2 lenses. But it was splitting hairs at this kind of image performance.

 

Both systems are stellar image makers and are simply different form factors to fit whatever needs you determine most important. I tend to use the H4D/60 in studio most, and take the S2P for more mobile work. I use the S2 much more than the H4D because it promotes taking it with you to more places. The H system is more mature and thus more versatile depending on what kind of diversified works you may do.

 

Working with the S2 for a while reveals just how fast it can be, and the camera has supplanted my 35mm DSLR almost completely now. I do not use multiple speed-light systems, so that lack is a moot point for me ... speed-lights are just to wimpy to be of any value to me and the work I do. I use strobes when working with lights whether with the H camera or the S2. I DO sometimes use an on-camera speed-light for a touch of fill with both cameras, and they are equals in that regard ... both being a Metz based flash system.

 

On screen, at smaller sizes it may be difficult to see a significant difference between a D3X (had one, sold it), and a S2 file ... except the S2 file looks better right out of the camera, looks better when printed and looks better when cropped. If someone can't see the difference then they should get the D3X and be happy. Beware the S2, as it spoils you, and stuff from your other cameras looks weak.

 

Hasselblad's True-Focus is a wonder to see in action ... While the TF system does work vertically or horizontally ... I don't get what the diagonal issue is. I can't think of anything I couldn't use TF on by placing the subject on the compositional line I want it and using either vertical or horizontal movement to TF it.

 

Anyway, can't go wrong with either kit.

 

-Marc

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BTW, what's not to like with the S70 Bokeh?

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Regarding "upgrading" the H back ... if you mean the back alone, you are mistaken ... the H system has been fully integrated since the H3D and when you upgrade to a different back you also upgrade the camera. It is no different from the S2 in that way. Unlike the S2, the H back CAN be removed to use on a tech camera.

 

I did not know that.

 

With the H system i was thinking of sticking it to my view camera too.

 

Hmnn.

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I did not know that.

 

With the H system i was thinking of sticking it to my view camera too.

 

Hmnn.

 

Yes, you CAN use the H4D back on a view camera ... the H4D/50 or H4D/60 ... but the H4D/31 or H4D/40 are not recommended for this type application because they employ micro-lenses on the sensor ... so when you do any T/S work color casts are produced.

 

I've used the back from a H3D-II/39, and my H4D/60, on a Rollei Xact-II view camera tethered to a computer to excellent effect.

 

If you want to use an H back on a field technical camera like an ALPA, then you must also use a power source to power the back because the back is normally powered by the H4D camera's grip battery. There are a number of power sources that can be used, the most used one being Hasselblad's Image Bank-II which is a small hard-drive that plugs into the FW800 port of the back and also powers the digital back. The H4D/60 digital back has been designed to take a new independent power source from Hasselblad, but it has yet to be launched for purchase.

 

Marc

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Nice picture ;), but I have seen softer bokeh on other lenses. Maybe a matter of taste as well

 

Well, that "Pear Picking" shot wasn't even shot completely wide open, but at f/2.8 to keep the girl in just the right amount of focus for the distance she was from the camera. At f/2.5 she went just a wee tad to soft. So the further background could have been even tiny bit softer/dreamier.

 

I agree, there are dreamier bokehs like with a M75/1.4 or Noctilux ... or even with some of the alt lenses you can use on a S2 ... like the Zeiss 110/2FE and Pentax 80/1.8 which rely on lens imperfections for their unique look ... but these are either a longer focal length or a faster aperture and of course will throw out the background more than a 70/2.5. My Hasselblad HC 100/2.2 will also do that, especially on a larger sensor H4D/60 camera compared to the S2 sensor size.

 

The "taste card" can be played for any comment ... and there has to be some criteria we each apply to our judgements which will be subjective. But I doubt many would find the S70 Bokeh to be unpleasant as implied by your blanket statement ... the specular highlights are nice and round, and the mid-range OOF edges are not "wormy".

 

The proof is in the pictures for others to evaluate using their critria, not just in words : -)

 

 

-Marc

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Here's a boekh shot with the S2 and 70, while on the topic.

 

Larger version here:

L1005621.jpg

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if I would buy a S2, then definitively not for the bokeh of the lenses (but I don't have tested the 35 so far). But this is probably the downside of modern lens design.

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+1 to Marc's experience on both systems, he has had them all and I do mean all of the systems. I went back and forth on the Hasselblad and Leica systems and in the end chose the S2 as it is as you describe, a "Fat D3". After experiencing MFD with a Hasselblad CFV I could not go back to a 35 image quality. Overall size and weight made carrying a FF 35 system a chore and I did not get the same image quality as the CFV. When it came time to make the decision, I sold my entire Hasselblad CFV kit and Nikon kit and picked up the S2. WHY? because it was about the same size as the Nikon and weighed about the same. I was ready many times to go with the H4D-40 but in the end the size and ergonomics of the S2 won hands down. Before selling the Hasselblad kit I had the opportunity to test the Hasselblad lenses against the Leica counterparts and Leica won in every case.

 

Hasselblad found that with digital processing, image corrections for lens aberrations could be made using software. The Phocus software does an admirable job doing that. In Leica's case they chose to make the best lenses available and do not rely on software corrections so what you sees is what you get. Two different approaches to the same outcome however Leica wins again for pure image quality. If I want to supplement the lens choices I can use Hasselblad, Mamiya or Pentax lenses on the S2 for different lens character.

 

in the end you will have to decide if switching platforms makes both economic and practical sense, as you have an investment in Hassleblad lenses or want to simplify your kit of Nikon and Hasselblad to one solution, S2.

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That is one of the S2 strengths ... it is a focal plane system (and a CS system IF they ever get the lenses out).

 

That means if you prefer a more legacy look to your Bokeh, you can indulge yourself with many choices via an adapter. Can't do that with the H camera.

 

Personally, I'm over all that ... I adapted my Zeiss FE lenses to almost every camera I ever owned ... Contax 645, Contax N and ND, Nikons, Canons, Mamiya AFD, But I'm done with all that. The S2 Auto Focus lenses are the best I've ever used and I like the Bokeh from all the lenses just fine and some are stellar at it.

 

I suppose the criteria of judging Bokeh is highly personal ... my criteria isn't looking at it as separate element as much as what over-all effect does it have on my pictorial objectives. I shoot mostly people, and the role of Bokeh and OOF roll off is to create the illusion of 3D separation from the background . I like certain Zeiss optics for this quality, as do I the S2 lenses. My work-a-day wedding shot attached is a standard example of that ... not my favorite type of shot, but it is the one's the Bride's Mom tends to buy so I do them. They always comment on how "real" shots like this look.

 

Stephan W, what were those shots you posted shot with? I'm confused as to their meaning. Are they S2 shots or shots with something else meant to demonstrate what you think is good bokeh? Clarification please.

 

Thanks,

 

-Marc

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Are they S2 shots or shots with something else meant to demonstrate what you think is good bokeh? Clarification please

 

This were shots taken with the S2, with the 120 (top), 70 (middle) and 180 (down) as far as I remember. I think the bokeh is somewhat of average (I would have to check what aperture was used). I made direct comparisons with my Nikon D3x with the 60 macro and the 70-200, which I liked a bit more. also, I had more keepers due to the faster AF of the Nikon. And you need really big prints to see a difference in resolution.

 

Don't take me wrong, I really love the S2 for it's ergonomic (except AF) and really outstanding lenses. I want to have one, sure. But when I make the balance of all arguments, then it is hard to justify (for me), except maybe as a second body for the time when you have exceptional good light, or a portable flash.

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Regarding the Bokeh I do agree that the Bokeh of the 180mm and 70mm being pretty good, but the one I get with some Leica M lenses being a tad smoother, also the one I would get from a Nikon 105/2.0DC.

I also found the bokeh from some Rollei lenses slightly smoother than that of the Leica S2 70 and 180 mm lenses.

 

The 120mm Leica I find very smooth. I had bought a used 110/2.0 Zeiss and an adapter but from my impression I dont think I will use that often.

 

For the contrast/sharpness and detail the S2-lenses do show even wide open I find the bokeh surprizingly smooth.

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