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OH BOY: a real VISA


Washington

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The M-9 is now officially attached to the PIGRIFF-C…. which currently has the handgrips

off and apart for a new switch. Now, what I would like to do is have two tubes… one

shortened for the M-9 and one left as is for a Nikon.

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RM,

The flange is .083’’ thick, mounting face to mounting face.

The flange is 2.009’’ outside diameter.

One standard male Novoflex mount.

One standard male Leica M mount

Quickie photos below:

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Thanks Rip, the pics are particularly helpful. I have a LEA (Leicaflex) adapter in hand to compare to. So, to summarize the measurements

- VISA thickness 2.1mm

- LEA thickness 8.0mm

- Difference between VISA and LEA = 5.9mm

 

- Flange to focal plane for VISOFLEX = 68.8mm

- Flange to focal plane for Leica R = 47mm

- Difference between visoflex and R is 21.8mm

 

Thus, you need to shorten up your NOVOFLEX C system tube by 21.8 - 5.9 = 15.9mm. I assume a mm more or so for tolerance is a good idea.

 

BTW, you can test all this beforehand by focusing the Novoflex system with VISA adapter on something very close. The standard, "thin lens equation" from 1st course physics will lead the way. Namely,

1/f1 + 1/f2 = 1/f

where f1 is the distance to the object from the lens, f is the focal length of the lens, and f2 is the distance to the focal plane from the lens. You can use a tape measure for the lens (the optical elements) to the object. Remember, f2 is not the reading on the lens focus but the actual distance of the optical element to the focal plane (you can figure that out from the the movement of the mount plus the knowledge of the 68.8 infinity distance). And, f, of course, is your 40mm lens.

 

I'm interested to hear how you do with the modification.

 

Good luck.

 

RM

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RM,

jappv, who had one of these adapted for the Vsoflex back when Visoflex did this chore

gave me a different shortening dimension .... I forget at this moment exactly what it was

but I have it noted in here in documents. I'm in no rush... but I will get it right!

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Yes, I recall that jaapv said that the barrel was shortened much more - 25+ mm if I remember right. Certainly one can shortened it a little more and then readjust the infinity stop with extra margin. I certainly would shorten a little more than the theoretical number I gave you. I'd guess about 20mm is good. But first, I'd check the theory!

 

As I said above, you can do a focus check of this first. I realize I left all the info above more in the form of a physics problem set question. I'll do the math for you and give you a real test. I'm assuming that you have the 400mm lens. If not, the following must be recalculated.

 

Test 1:

- Focus your Novoflex system on you Nikon camera to infinity and lock the focus.

- Now change adapters and put it on the Visoflex. The lens should now be focused at 10.4m (34' 1.45"). Check with a tape measure. Not the easiest test because of the distance.

 

Test 2 (closer focus):

- Mount the Novoflex system on your Nikon. Extend the lens focus with the macro unit and/or the trigger focus by exactly 50mm. I doubt that you can do this with the trigger focus only. The Nikon should be focused of an object 3.6m (11' 9.73") away. Lock the focus here.

- Mount the system on the Visoflex now without changing the focus setting. The system should now focus on an object at 2.824m (9' 3.2") away.

 

IMPORTANT: The focus distance I quote is from the lens doublet and NOT the camera focal plane.

 

The second test will also be much more sensitive to the ~16mm delta number which we are trying to check with this test.

 

Have fun, or ignore my ramblings......

 

RM

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The M-9 is now officially attached to the PIGRIFF-C…. (...). Now, what I would like to do is have two tubes… one

shortened for the M-9 and one left as is for a Nikon.

 

Hi Washington,

if you could do without the 400 mm Noflexar T-head on the Visoflex2/3, as to say being restricted to the (astonishingly good) Noflexar 600/8 (and the Telyt 560/6,8 head) on the Visoflex2/3 :cool:,

than there is a quick and dirty way to adapt the Novoflex PIGRIF C sytem to both your Nikon AND your Visoflex2/3 without changing the PICRIF C sytem,

as I do.

 

If have described this possibility - of using the M8/9 with Visoflex2/3 and unaltered PIGRIF system C which can be focused from infinity to around 4 meters - here:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/189375-seals-posing-noflexar-600-8-first.html

 

The trick is easy, fastly done and completely reversible :):

The Noflexar 600/8 is modular - you can take out a tube of a length of 8,4 cm.

That is much more than you need to compensate for the extra length introduced by the adaptation to the Visoflex2/3 (In my case - I don‘t have a VISA, this is the Novoflex to Leica R-adapter plus the standard R to M-adapter (22228 - or the respective adapter made by Novoflex) plus the additional depth of the Visoflex2/3 as compared to the R reflex housing - together around 3,5 cm).

To compensate for the remaining less than 5 cm of missing tube length, I do not want to use up 5 cm (of the 8 cm) of the additional extendible tube length of the PIGRIF C.

Instead, I use variable combinations of R- and M-macro rings - between the PIGRIF C and the Visoflex2/3:

- With 2 R-macro rings 14158 (or 14158 plus the 14135 inserted, = 5 cm), the focus range is from approx. 4 meters to approx. 100 meters (already good for most photos).

- Alternatively, with 1 ring 14158 and 2 M-macro rings 16469 (= 4,5 cm) one should be able to focus slightly beyond infinity.

(These rings can be grouped around the R to M-adapter 22228).

 

The benefit:

You only need standard adapter rings (no special makings), nothing is permanently changed (= no losses), everything can be quickly reversed as to be used on modern dSLRs ... :D

 

Best regards,

Telyt2003

 

PS: To use the Telyt 560/6,8 head in a comparable way, the respective intermediate tube "LINSE-560" would need to be shortened by the appropriate length. The normal dimensions of this adapter tube (needed to use the front part of the Telyt 560/6,8 head on the PIFAS-C/PIGRIF-C) I have communicated here:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1762325-post44.html

 

BTW: In principle, in such a way the 560/600 mm lenses on the Visoflex2/3 can also be combined with the (1,4x) Apo-Extender-R, and still be focused to infinity.

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Telyt2003,

Oh my goodness: you have just opened the rabbit’s hole to wonderland for me!!!!

I’ll say this works…. I can use a Nikon body with a bit of extension with the macro

tube to gain infinity… focuses 15-20’ to infinity!!! The Canon with a EOS to FD adapter

(with adapter lens removed) fitted to the Novo Canon FD mount it came with focuses

20’ to past infinity. I have not fitted the Viso yet because I was so delighted about what’s

happened so far I actually got nervous! (silly, but true) I will be fitting the Viso when I

calm down. Man, I CAN NOT THANK YOU ENOUGH!!!!!

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Telyt2003,

Oh my goodness: you have just opened the rabbit’s hole to wonderland for me!!!!

I’ll say this works…. (...)

 

Rip, thank you for your kind words!

 

Welcome to the wonderland of Novoflex 'bricolage' ;)

 

Do I understand correctly that you are now doing all this with the (shortened) Noflexar 600/8 lens head !? (I was not sure, if you have it).

 

Still no plans to - again reversibly! - adapt the Telyt 560/6,8 to your PIGRIF system C, for example via a modular variant of the adapter tube 'LINSE-560' which could be shortened by a few cm whenever needed (for use with the Visoflex2/3)?

 

I am asking, because I would be interested in such a (modular) tube, but don't see who could make it.

(Novoflex no longer makes it :(, as reported: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1760026-post38.html, and post 41).

 

Telyt2003

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Some interesting and valuable information going on here. I've got some Novoflex Pigriff and Pigriff B equipment. The front lens elements on these systems use a ~77mm x 0.5mm pitch thread. This is the thread used on the lens heads ahead of the f/stop mechanism. The lens heads have a spacer tube which uses the same thread at both ends. Is this the same on the Pigriff C system? And, do the Leica Telyt lenses use a similar thread.

 

The main purpose of my question is to understand if I can adapt a Leica telyt lens to the Novoflex system at the lens head.

 

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

RM

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Some interesting and valuable information going on here. I've got some Novoflex Pigriff and Pigriff B equipment. The front lens elements on these systems use a ~77mm x 0.5mm pitch thread. This is the thread used on the lens heads ahead of the f/stop mechanism. The lens heads have a spacer tube which uses the same thread at both ends. Is this the same on the Pigriff C system?

 

Hello Robert,

perhaps I can answer (some of) your questions, albeit I do not have a Pigriff (A) nor a Pigriff-B/Pifas-B.

 

However, the Pifas-C ("the f/stop mechanism") connected to my Pigriff-C (the focus unit) - both the same as pictured in post 1- probably share the thread which connects them to the lens heads with the former Pigriff-B/Pifas-B system.

At least, the lens heads made for the Pigriff/Pifas-B system could still be used on the Pigriff/Pifas-C system (please compare the experts here - sorry, in German: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-sammler-historica/28947-novoflex-5-6-400mm-schnellschussobjektiv-2.html, esp. post 31).

 

Thus, I would conclude that the thread which connects these lens heads to the Pifas-units is the same in both the Pifas-B and the Pifas-C.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

Now the lens heads (I have the late Noflexar 600/8, a duplet achromat, and the late T-Noflexar 400/5,6, a triplet achromat).

According to information that I got directly from Novoflex, the thread of the Pifas-C (and thereby probably also of the Pifs-B) is M77,5 x 0,7 (not 0,75 !, I measure 77,3 mm with my Soviet-made calliper).

(This thread is different from the filter thread at the front of the lens heads which is M77 (I measure 76,75 mm) and therefore is clearly smaller).

 

Whereas the triplet T-Noflexar cannot be further shortened (no "spacers"), the long Noflexar 600/8 can be shortened by taking out a "spacer" tubus of 8,4 cm length (as described above). The threads of this tube are again different, probably M80 (I measure 79,75 mm). They are the same at both ends of the "spacer" tube, as you mentioned.

 

BTW, what of your Novoflex lens heads do have such "spacer" tubes (and how long are they), please?

 

And, do the Leica Telyt lenses use a similar thread. The main purpose of my question is to understand if I can adapt a Leica telyt lens to the Novoflex system at the lens head.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

RM

 

My first question would be what Leitz/Leica Telyt head you would like to adapt?:

I assume either the Telyt 400/6,8 or the Telyt 560/6,8 (I never heard of an adaptation of the Leitz Telyt heads 400/5,6 or 560/5,6 that were made for Televit).

 

1) The Telyt 400/6,8 was adapted both to the Pigrif system B (please see Poelking's website), very rare, and also to the Pigrif system C. The adaptation to the Pigrif system C, according to Novoflex, efforded a new mount, only the lenses proper (the glass) were used from the Telyt.

 

2) The Telyt 560/6,8 was (no longer is!) adapted to the Pigrif system C (thus probably also compatible with the Pigrif system B) by Novoflex on a regular basis, via a special adapter tube (called 'LINSE-560'). The required thread of the Telyt 560/6,8 head is M87 x 0,75 (according to Novoflex).

Please compare above (posts 9, 12) or here:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1760026-post38.html

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1762325-post44.html

 

Hoping this was of help!

Best regards,

Telyt2003

 

PS: For sure, the optics of both the Telyt 400/6,8 and 560/6,8 were also used in special mounts with a new Novoflex bayonet connecting them to the latest model Pigriff system D (with the Pifas/the f-stop mechanism integrated into the Pigriff). There existed also a Leica version of this system D with a fixed R-byonet (1990-1995).

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Yup, the Viso works too!

Lock the focus sliding tube all the way back…. unlock the the extension tube and slide

forward to achieve infinity focus. Re-lock it in that position and use as normal: 20’ to

infinity! Boy, am I happy!!!!!!!!!

 

Rip, congratulations again that your Novoflex system C works with the VISA-adapted Visoflex2/3, and still focuses to infinity.

I am really jealous (and puzzled), because in my hands, it never worked :confused:, except if I shortened at least one component in the system to reduce its overall length (as described above in post 9 for the Noflexar 600/8).

 

According to the theory, the Novoflex system C is too long to be able to focus to infinity with a Visoflex2/3, even if adapted by the "shortest" possible way - the VISA (that was made for a different purpose).

 

Thus, I would be really interested to know why it works with your system C and the Visoflex2/3.

Are you sure that nothing has been shortened in your system C?

 

There are different possibilities to shorten the system:

 

Firstly, shortening of the Novoflex Pigriff-C (the focus unit) and/or Pifas-C (the f-stop unit).

If you carefully compare the Novoflex system C of Jaap which had been shortened for use with the Visoflex2/3 by Novoflex (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/917943-post11.html), then you see one clear differencce between Jaap's and your (and also my) system C (as pictured in your post 1) :

The Pifas-C unit in Jaap's picture is clearly shorter at its front end (in his picture, this part (in black lacquer) of the Pifas-C is short, in your image the front part of the (black matt) Pifas-C is normally long).

- so probably Novoflex shortens the system there (Everything else apparently looks the same, except the lens heads which are two different ones, please compare below).

 

Alternatively, one can shorten (at least some of) the lenses, e.g., the Noflexar 600/8 or the Telyt 560/6,8, as proposed above (in posts 9, 12).

 

However, there is likely no way to shorten the triplet T-Noflexar 400/5,6, because the third lens of its lens triplet is protruding from the back.

 

... I did this with a 400mm Noflexar f5.6… what do I know? It works great!

 

Looking at your picture (post 1), I would assume that you are using the duplet "Noflexar 1:5,6 400 mm" which normally is physically much shorter than the T-Noflexar.

I would further assume that also this duplet Noflexar 400/5,6 cannot be further shortened (but do not know), and the lens head in your image, albeit very short, does not look shorter than normally (however, I only know the latter lens from pictures!).

 

Perhaps the solution can be found here, in the lens head? Could you please check, if the your Noflexar 400/5,6 is a "normal" lens head, if possible ?

 

With best regards,

Telyt2003

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More:

All I know is what I try. I finally have the PIGRIFF-C assembled with a two-stage micro-

micro switch in the trigger housing which wired to a 2.3mm stereo jack- allows me to use

any digital body.

After removing the spacer ring…. and using the close-focus slider- with the lens locked

fully back to focus at infinity….. this allowed the use of Canon, Nikon, and Leica Viso.

The 600mm lens head is on the bench…. which will be tried next.

Photo: M-9. 50mm CV f2 Heliar.

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After removing the spacer ring….

Aha! So you did shorten the system! :eek: This is exactly the bit of information which was lacking ...

 

After removing the spacer ring…. and using the close-focus slider- with the lens locked fully back to focus at infinity….. this allowed the use of Canon, Nikon, and Leica Viso. ...

 

This all makes perfect sense, and now is exactly as expected! Thank you for this information.

However, I would still propose to use additional extension rings between the Pigriff-C and the Visoflex (or reflex camera) to (partly) re-establish the suitable length of the system instead of using up part of the Pigriff's extension tube for that.

 

Please allow me a note on the "spacer ring" (probably the piece that you have taped "Novo 400mm tube" on your photo, resting on top of the Pigriff-C unit):

This is NOT a part of any lens head (e.g., the Noflexar 400/5,6), but it belongs to (was delivered with) the PIFAS-C ("f-stop unit" of the system C).

This "spacer ring" could not just be unscrewed, but you removed the small securing screw before, didn't you !?

What you actually did is a variant of the adaptation of the Novoflex system C to the Visoflex2/3 as done by Novoflex themselves (please see my description above), with the difference of taking out a bit more of tube (exactly 3 cm).

 

The lens heads normally screw into to the front thread (M77,5x0,7) of this part of the PIFAS-C (your "spacer ring") which evidently carries the same (but longer) thread also on its rear part.

Now I understand that Robert's "spacer tube" is probably identical to your "spacer ring", i.e. the front part of the PIFAS-C unit.

 

I am normally not touching securing screws (i.e., removing parts which are normally not intended to be removed) without having more skilled people (like you) having done it before (and having communicated a description of what they did).

 

With taking out this part of the PIFAS-C (shortening of the Novoflex system C by 3 cm) the adaptation to the Visoflex2/3 becomes simplier with SOME of the compatible lens heads AND without (additionally) shortening of the respective lens heads :cool:.

I just checked it:

- It works with the (unshortened) Noflexar 600/8 lens head whose optical unit is very small and connects to the (rest of the) PIFAS-C via a plus 20 cm long, modular, empty tube.

- So it will probably also work with the (front part of the) head of the Telyt 560/6,8 adapted via the (unaltered) tube 'LINSE-560'.

- BUT: It still does NOT work with the T-Noflexar 400/5,6 (because of its protruding rear lens element!)

(- In contrast, as seen on your image, it evidently works with the (no T) Noflexar 400/5,6).

 

...

The 600mm lens head is on the bench…. which will be tried next.

...

 

Hope you also have the plus 20 cm of empty tube belonging to the 600 mm lens head at hand ;). I am joking!

 

Best regards,

Telyt2003

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Hello Robert,

with now the information at hand what you (and probably also Rip) may refer to as "spacer tube/ring", I can answer to your questions in a different order (albeit the facts remain the same as in my former answer, please compare my post 16):

 

I don't know, if I use the correct technical terms, but tried my best (thank you for your understanding).

 

Some interesting and valuable information going on here. I've got some Novoflex Pigriff and Pigriff B equipment. The front lens elements on these systems use a ~77mm x 0.5mm pitch thread. ...

 

Answer: They use the above precised M77,5 x 0,7 (not 0,75), the thread used by Novoflex to screw lens heads (of probably the systems B and C) to the respective PIFAS ("f-stop") units.

 

... This is the thread used on the lens heads ahead of the f/stop mechanism. The lens heads have a spacer tube which uses the same thread at both ends. ...

 

Answer: As also proposed in my answer to Rip (my post 19), what you refer to as a "spacer tube" of the "lens heads" very likely belongs to (was delivered with) the PIFAS unit, at least in the system C.

This "spacer tube" is not a part of a lens head, at least not in the system C:

The "spacer tube" is normally fixed to the PIFAS-C ("f-stop unit") via a securing screw, and thus normally cannot be unscrewed.

This "spacer tube" (i.e., the front part of the PIFAS-C), in fact, has the same threads on both ends, however the rear thread is longer than the front thread.

There is an internal 'stop' for the rear thread of the "adapter tube" (the front part of the PIFAS-C) preventing it from being srewed in more than about half way of the long thread of the rear part of the PIFAS-C.

 

On the contrary, if you screw, for example the Noflexar 600/8 lens head, directly into the truncated (rear part of the) PIFAS-C (e.g., without its "spacer tube"/front part in place), then there is no internal 'stop' for the rear thread of the lens head which can be screwed in until you hit an internal ring against stray light (which isn't stable enough as a true 'stop').

 

This I feel isn't very nice, and is the reason that I actually prefer shortening the system © by taking out the intermediate tube (with 80 mm threads) of the Noflexar 600/8 lens head (as described above).

 

... Is this the same on the Pigriff C system? ...

 

Answer: Likely yes (please see my answer in post 16).

 

... And, do the Leica Telyt lenses use a similar thread.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

RM

 

Answer: No, for the Telyt 560/6,8, it is M87 x 0,75 (you need an adapter tube like the 'LINSE-560', please see my answer in post 16).

 

Best regards,

Telyt2003

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