jr_in_dallas Posted September 5, 2009 Share #61 Posted September 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You still need feedback from the autofocus when it's on. Sound? Uncertain and annoying in some situations. Small cameras with viewfinders us a small LED placed near the optical viewfinder to indicate focus. It is silent and works quite well, even in bright sunlight. The DP1 uses this as well as the Canon G9. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 5, 2009 Posted September 5, 2009 Hi jr_in_dallas, Take a look here X1 discussion thread (merged). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thrid Posted September 5, 2009 Share #62 Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) I cannot understand why do you say an optical viewfinder would preclude the use of AF. The Konica Hexar AF, Nikon 35Ti, Ricoh GR-1, Leica Minilux, Contax T2 and T3, and nearly every other point and shoot AF 35mm camera used OVFs with separated RF windows. All of them had just a pair of small brackets in the middle of the VF field to mark where the camera was focusing. I used for years a Hexar AF and a Nikon 35Ti (I still have this one) and never mis focused a shot. Yes, they had slow AF systems, but they were 1980's technology. If you have a properly designed detachable OVF, with properly aligned AF brackets, which should be very simple for Leica to build, you can use the AF. With the rear LCD shut off, it wouldn't be different than any other of the above mentioned cameras. What I was trying to say is that if you're looking through the brightline finder in the hotshoe, you can't see where the focus point is, because it is only displayed on the rear LCD. The brightline finder could have a center making that was used to aim the AF with reasonable results, but due to parallax issues you would not be able to us it for very accurate focusing, especially at close distances. By accurate I mean you could probably not use the cross hair in the brightline finder to focus on the eye of a person etc. And if they implement some sort of Snap pre-focusing mode as seen on the Ricoh GR-D and GX series of cameras, you'd have already a capable street shooting tool. That's what I am hoping for and I would be very, very surprised if Leica screwed this part up. Combined with a good brightline finder in the hotshoe the X1 would be as good for street shooting, as an LTM or maybe even M body. The GRD series is very good at this. If you mean instead using the OVF with MANUAL FOCUS, then I'm half way with you. But obviously, if you focus on the rear LCD you'll not need the OVF... Agreed. But I still would like to see an X1 that has an optical viewfinder, that showed a center AF point and frame lines. All of this should be parallax corrected of course. I somehow think it will be a very cold day in hell before Leica gives us a true digital CL-D. Maybe they don't believe that a prosumer, manual focus RF camera will sell. But by doing so they are ignoring the legions of M shooters that do not have $6500 laying around for an M9. Edited September 6, 2009 by thrid Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 6, 2009 Share #63 Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) Obviously, we're all speculating. But.... There has been a void in the market place for a TRUE "professional's" personal, casual camera. I'm not just talking about "technically." I'm also speaking to "aesthetically." I shoot for a living. When I have a camera in my hand, I want to know/feel that I'm holding an instrument worthy of my skills... and I want to know that the image it is capable of producing is ALSO worthy of my skills. To his date... NO ONE had done that. Sure, we can make a list of cameras that reviewers have dubbed "the professional's point n' shoot," but every single one of them comes with an "if" or a "but" or an asterisk accompanying it. I've got a hunch that the X1 may very well be THAT camera. I hold a slight reserve due to the fact it appears to lack and optical view finder... but (oh, oh.... there it is) but, short of that... this is a professional photographers personal Sunday driver. THIS appears to be the real deal. Now I realize some may say, "well why wouldn't a professional photographer us an M body for a personal camera?" Because an M is professional money. It is an expense that a pro will tend to preserve and allocate toward business equipment. No, I think we all would enjoy a quality little jewel in our pocket that separates us from the rest of the point 'n shoot crowd. No explaining WHY ours cost more than it's Panasonic cousin. No defensive explanations that ... this is a Leica. The X1 is a Leica. In pictures at least, it appears substantially larger than the D-Lux series.... yet a bit smaller than an M. Why fixed lens? Because a good photographer will make is photos work with what he has. (hey... I just shot a kids golf clinic today with a 500mm as my only lens. The photos are stunning). If I need 90mm instead of 35mm, I'll simply take 10-15 steps forward. Hopefully it won't be off a cliff. LOL Leica has made a smart move here. Consider the market position. From pricing categories, they have product at the upper end of the point n' shoot scales.... (c-lux, d-lux) and the can let Panasonic do all the RD and development. Not sullying up the home team's locker room. They continue in their own space uncontested with the M. They move their top of the line initiative into the medium format space with the S2. (remember, this price point also generates margins worthy of the effort) ... it's not aimed at a cost conscious target. And now, the end-all of personal digital cameras... the X1. Probably priced around $2K... truly worthy of the Leica name.... and in a market space where it will stand completely on its own. Sure... you'll have an odd Ricoh, or EP1, or Sigma... but at the end of the day, it will be all of them together compared to "The Leica." If my guess are correct... this is all nothing less than brilliant. Of course, I could be wrong. JT Edited September 6, 2009 by John Thawley Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted September 6, 2009 Share #64 Posted September 6, 2009 John I hope you're right and the camera does look beautiful....but. An F2.8 lens at a cost of $2500 (that's what I'm hearing and may not be accurate), no M mount. Is it image stabilized? Personally it is not for me but I would have been one of the first to plop down $2500 for it if it had an M mount. My LX3 has a 24 mm F2 Leitz lens, is stabilized and produces raw files that do produce professional work at a cost of $400. I'm more concerned that that there were no M8 (2)'s shown in the brochure and Leica have abandoned their promise of an upgradeable camera and discontinued them. That will piss me off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted September 6, 2009 Share #65 Posted September 6, 2009 I've been waiting for Leica to make this camera for years. A digital compact in the spirit of the minilux and CM. I used a minilux for years and took some stunning photos with it. An X1 may very well be in my immediate future and a perfect digital companion to my film MP. An optical VF in the hotshoe is perfectly acceptable to me. Any thoughts as to pricing? I'm hoping no more than US$1500-$2000. Any more than that and I will have to consider a used M8 instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchs Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share #66 Posted September 6, 2009 ... The brightline finder could have a center making that was used to aim the AF with reasonable results, but due to parallax issues you would not be able to us it for very accurate focusing, especially at close distances. By accurate I mean you could probably not use the cross hair in the brightline finder to focus on the eye of a person etc. Yes, parallax compensation could be a real world issue if the camera focuses closer than, say, 1mt, and if the AF sensor is too small. The 24/2.8 should compensate somewhat for a little focusing inaccuracy due to the not too shallow DOF. ... But I still would like to see an X1 that has an optical viewfinder, that showed a center AF point and frame lines. All of this should be parallax corrected of course. Me too!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 6, 2009 Share #67 Posted September 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Offshore: Don't take this wrong way... but your LX3 is a Panasonic... as is the D-Lux 4. It is NOT a Leitz lens. It is a lens built to Leica specs and with Leica supervision. I'm not saying it's a bad lens... but if there is anything in the world of cameras that rings loud and clear, it's that good glass is good glass and good glass NEVER EVER comes cheap. Another thing, your lens is NOT 24mm. it is a 5.1mm - 12.8mm - because of the tiny sensor, it yields a crop equaling 24mm. So, it's a double hit here. You're talking a real piece of glass, a larger piece of glass and completely made by Leica. That's nothing to scoff at. The X1 (if all of this is true) is 24mm equaling a crop of 35mm. If in fact it is a 1:6 crop factor, this means many less pixel per centimeter than your LX3. Hence, larger pixels provide smoother rendering of colors etc. From appearances and a hunch, the X1 is going to rely heavily on its feel to the hands and it's emotional appeal. It's often said, if you feel good about the instrument you're using you'll produce better results. I truly believe (if this camera is what we think it is) this will be the case. With all due respect to users of the D-Lux 4 and the LX3 and even the D-Lux 3... (I've owned several) in the end, they still fall short. Yes they take terrific images. But do my 5 year-old Digilux 2(s). Actually, in many ways, I feel the Digilux 2 takes better images and is BY FAR, a much nicer camera in the hands. Now, "in the hands" may not mean much to you. I think, and I guess Leica is banking on it, there are a lot of people who feel "in the hands" is VERY important. A lot of them own M8s. A whole lot more would like to own M8s.... but the financial reach is rather lengthy. No, Leica may have figured out that while they have to be Leica, they have to have a range of products that span a part of the market that is potentially Leica users AND find a range that will grow NEW Leica users. The Pana/Leicas don't do that. I think they give Leica a presence and help with brand visibility.... but they don't tell the Leica story. They don't carry the Leica heritage or continue the Leica culture. I realize this may be all to esoteric and not meaningful to some... but again, I think Leica is banking on those that do feel it's important. In many ways, it's not unlike Apple's philosophy. There are zillions of people that don't feel the need to drink Apples' kool-aid. And while there are many PC owners who are curious or dare I say "dream of owning an Apple, most Apple ownders wouldn't dream of going the other way. They get it. They understand. I think the Japanese word is "otaku".... it's when "something" is shared by a smaller group of people who are obsessed with that "something." When something has "otaku" the people who care will tell everyone they know.... they will pay dearly... they will pursue it relentless. Why? Because to the people who love that product, deeply care about that product. They believe. And they will tell others who care. Leica has "otaku." They don't need to sell everyone a camera. They only have to sell those who care about the product. And those people will carry their message to others who care. It's not about a large market segment. It is not about average products for average people. It's doing something well for your segment of the market and those who care. If a company wants to be noticed in today's marketplace, they need to do something remarkable. Safe doesn't cut it. Safe doesn't get anyone's attention. Leica (possibly) has done something remarkable. They'll speak to the people who care (hence the 09/09/09 broadcast) and the people who care will carry the message for them. We'll see. JT Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 6, 2009 Share #68 Posted September 6, 2009 Otaku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted September 6, 2009 Share #69 Posted September 6, 2009 I usually use a 35 on my R/SL2 bodies as my normal lens too. Seems to me that all the comments about the X1 here are spot on. It has potential, no doubt about it; it definitely will get heavy scrutiny as a new camera for Leica as it's 'the new kid on the block'. We'll see soon enough, and as a 40 year-long Leica user, I hope it helps them to keep moving forward and helps them pull new users into the fold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted September 6, 2009 Share #70 Posted September 6, 2009 Using the hotshoe as a reference point it appears the X1 will be about the same size as the Sigma DP1/DP2 but 1/2 inch wider, 1/4 thicker and maybe about the same height or perhaps 1/8 inch less. I think it is a lot smaller than people realize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicpeh Posted September 6, 2009 Share #71 Posted September 6, 2009 The only small thing not to like for the X1 (for me) is that the aperture dial is on the top plate. Since it's a fixed lens camera, why don't Leica just put the aperture ring on the lens barrel like the Digilux 2 ??? The rest like large sensor, possible OVF, autofocus, etc are just PERFECT. A M8 with an Elmarit Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted September 6, 2009 Share #72 Posted September 6, 2009 Yes, parallax compensation could be a real world issue if the camera focuses closer than, say, 1mt, and if the AF sensor is too small. The 24/2.8 should compensate somewhat for a little focusing inaccuracy due to the not too shallow DOF. We will have to wait a few more days and see how things turn out... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted September 6, 2009 Share #73 Posted September 6, 2009 Small cameras with viewfinders us a small LED placed near the optical viewfinder to indicate focus. It is silent and works quite well, even in bright sunlight. The DP1 uses this as well as the Canon G9. I thought they were talking an accessory viewfinder in the hotshoe for the X1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted September 6, 2009 Share #74 Posted September 6, 2009 I thought they were talking an accessory viewfinder in the hotshoe for the X1. On the DP2 and GRD there is a focus confirmation LED on the body to the right of the hotshoe. You can see it light up out of the corner of your eye when looking through the accessory viewfinder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted September 6, 2009 Share #75 Posted September 6, 2009 I rather doubt that the images will be similar to the M8, as this is an APS Cmos sensor, quite a different beast. I am convinced they will be of exceedingly high quality, however. Well, not identical, naturally; don't expect that from a camera presumably at half the price or less. If the pictures are similar, better than what the DP1/2 is capable of and without the shortcomings of speed, build, etc; has a small enough footprint and handles well like the D-Lux-4; and is not prohibitively expensive (perhaps USD2,000 or less) - I think it would make a compelling choice for many people who wants the ease of use and portability/discreetness but not willing to sacrifice IQ. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatboy Posted September 6, 2009 Share #76 Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) I am wondering if Leica read my thread from 25th Jan 2009...? "Digital CM - reboot" here is the link - http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/76096-digital-cm-reboot.html They delivered on the sensor size, camera size but not the viewfinder. What about the recommendation of a matched pair of clip on lenses? The Leica Minilux and CM sold in big numbers (I had a CM) and no one complained about the lack of zoom or fixed lens. The fixed lens compacts always seem to deliver an IQ that was astounding considering the size of the instrument. I have some enlargements from the CM that are amazing - the optics are great. I suspect its easier to design a fixed lens compact with great IQ than a removable lens one. A lot of people have asked for a cheaper entry into a real Leica digital, some things have to yield to make it affordable and OVF was it for the X1. Edited September 6, 2009 by meatboy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted September 6, 2009 Share #77 Posted September 6, 2009 Mods, thanks for the merge by the way, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 6, 2009 Share #78 Posted September 6, 2009 No problem. I'm tempted to merge ALL the M9 threads into one, then run away... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted September 6, 2009 Share #79 Posted September 6, 2009 No problem. I'm tempted to merge ALL the M9 threads into one, then run away... Do it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 6, 2009 Share #80 Posted September 6, 2009 Since it's a fixed lens camera, why don't Leica just put the aperture ring on the lens barrel like the Digilux 2 ??? Presumably because it makes the lens (and thus the whole camera) smaller? I was wondering about that as well. As far as "look and feel" are concerned I'd rather have an aperture ring on the lens barrel, but a real "mechanical" aperture dial on the camera also seems like a good solution to me and it's still something the competition doesn't have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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